1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:08,710 [Music] 2 00:00:14,629 --> 00:00:12,310 hello and welcome to episode number 43 3 00:00:19,349 --> 00:00:14,639 of the point of convergence podcast 4 00:00:22,310 --> 00:00:19,359 as always i am your host exo academian 5 00:00:24,630 --> 00:00:22,320 in 2017 the new york times dropped a 6 00:00:27,269 --> 00:00:24,640 bombshell article detailing a secret 7 00:00:30,390 --> 00:00:27,279 government ufo program that included 8 00:00:32,950 --> 00:00:30,400 footage of newly categorized uap 9 00:00:35,350 --> 00:00:32,960 unidentified aerial phenomena 10 00:00:37,430 --> 00:00:35,360 that article published by a mainstream 11 00:00:40,229 --> 00:00:37,440 industry-leading publication like the 12 00:00:42,869 --> 00:00:40,239 times inspired other publications and 13 00:00:44,389 --> 00:00:42,879 news outlets all across the world to 14 00:00:47,270 --> 00:00:44,399 follow suit 15 00:00:49,510 --> 00:00:47,280 the ensuing drama resulted in a new wave 16 00:00:52,229 --> 00:00:49,520 of public and political interest in the 17 00:00:54,470 --> 00:00:52,239 topic of ufos that has vaulted this 18 00:00:56,069 --> 00:00:54,480 field into new heights in the public 19 00:00:58,709 --> 00:00:56,079 sphere 20 00:01:01,270 --> 00:00:58,719 still as groundbreaking as that article 21 00:01:04,310 --> 00:01:01,280 and its contents were it turns out that 22 00:01:06,469 --> 00:01:04,320 numerous errors also squeaked through 23 00:01:08,310 --> 00:01:06,479 in addition the article opened up many 24 00:01:09,990 --> 00:01:08,320 intriguing questions that were never 25 00:01:12,390 --> 00:01:10,000 fully answered 26 00:01:14,630 --> 00:01:12,400 at least until now 27 00:01:17,429 --> 00:01:14,640 this past week saw the publication of a 28 00:01:19,590 --> 00:01:17,439 trailblazing new book titled skinwalkers 29 00:01:21,910 --> 00:01:19,600 at the pentagon that is garnering 30 00:01:24,070 --> 00:01:21,920 considerable attention for numerous 31 00:01:26,230 --> 00:01:24,080 reasons not the least of which is 32 00:01:28,390 --> 00:01:26,240 because it sets the record straight on 33 00:01:31,109 --> 00:01:28,400 many of the details that the times 34 00:01:32,550 --> 00:01:31,119 article ultimately got wrong 35 00:01:35,109 --> 00:01:32,560 but serving as much more than a 36 00:01:38,630 --> 00:01:35,119 correction of the historical record this 37 00:01:39,670 --> 00:01:38,640 new book penned by james lakatsky colm 38 00:01:42,550 --> 00:01:39,680 kelleher 39 00:01:45,190 --> 00:01:42,560 and george knapp sheds wholly new light 40 00:01:47,830 --> 00:01:45,200 on a secret program titled the advanced 41 00:01:51,429 --> 00:01:47,840 aerospace weapon system applications 42 00:01:53,670 --> 00:01:51,439 program or awsap for short 43 00:01:55,910 --> 00:01:53,680 whose paradigm changing findings were 44 00:01:58,069 --> 00:01:55,920 ultimately delivered to the dia the 45 00:02:00,630 --> 00:01:58,079 defense intelligence agency at the 46 00:02:03,510 --> 00:02:00,640 culmination of its research 47 00:02:05,429 --> 00:02:03,520 as it turns out the program likatsky and 48 00:02:09,190 --> 00:02:05,439 kelleher spearheaded 49 00:02:11,750 --> 00:02:09,200 between 2008 and 2010 covered a broad 50 00:02:13,589 --> 00:02:11,760 swath of phenomena that included but 51 00:02:17,910 --> 00:02:13,599 went well beyond sightings of 52 00:02:20,309 --> 00:02:17,920 unidentified aerial phenomena aka ufos 53 00:02:22,790 --> 00:02:20,319 other matters investigated included 54 00:02:24,550 --> 00:02:22,800 psychic effects the often termed 55 00:02:27,030 --> 00:02:24,560 hitchhiker phenomenon 56 00:02:30,229 --> 00:02:27,040 poltergeist activity and the documented 57 00:02:32,710 --> 00:02:30,239 physiological effects on human beings of 58 00:02:34,309 --> 00:02:32,720 contact with these various mysterious 59 00:02:36,550 --> 00:02:34,319 phenomena 60 00:02:39,350 --> 00:02:36,560 no doubt the contents of this book will 61 00:02:41,910 --> 00:02:39,360 shock many and without question many 62 00:02:44,790 --> 00:02:41,920 from the mainstream both scientists and 63 00:02:47,030 --> 00:02:44,800 journalists alike will balk at much of 64 00:02:49,589 --> 00:02:47,040 this material because it brings the 65 00:02:51,589 --> 00:02:49,599 question of the primacy of consciousness 66 00:02:54,150 --> 00:02:51,599 and controversial matters such as 67 00:02:55,750 --> 00:02:54,160 sophisticated non-human intelligence 68 00:02:58,070 --> 00:02:55,760 into the fore 69 00:03:00,710 --> 00:02:58,080 but of course this kind of material is 70 00:03:01,830 --> 00:03:00,720 perfectly suited to a podcast such as 71 00:03:04,070 --> 00:03:01,840 this one 72 00:03:07,190 --> 00:03:04,080 and so this is precisely the terrain we 73 00:03:09,110 --> 00:03:07,200 plan to traverse in this the 43rd 74 00:03:12,430 --> 00:03:09,120 episode of the point of convergence 75 00:03:19,190 --> 00:03:16,710 [Music] 76 00:03:21,990 --> 00:03:19,200 as we begin this week's podcast i'd just 77 00:03:24,710 --> 00:03:22,000 like to point out that for my eyes 78 00:03:27,270 --> 00:03:24,720 what set the ossap investigation apart 79 00:03:29,509 --> 00:03:27,280 from so many other historical endeavors 80 00:03:32,550 --> 00:03:29,519 was an approach combining a commitment 81 00:03:35,430 --> 00:03:32,560 to scientific rigor with an openness to 82 00:03:39,030 --> 00:03:35,440 pursue the data wherever it took them 83 00:03:41,750 --> 00:03:39,040 including beyond mainstream physicalism 84 00:03:43,830 --> 00:03:41,760 now again this is a rare thing 85 00:03:45,589 --> 00:03:43,840 not very often do you find scientific 86 00:03:48,470 --> 00:03:45,599 endeavors that are willing to do this 87 00:03:50,710 --> 00:03:48,480 especially a government-funded one it's 88 00:03:52,470 --> 00:03:50,720 amazing to me that this program ever got 89 00:03:54,470 --> 00:03:52,480 off the ground to begin with 90 00:03:56,309 --> 00:03:54,480 but it did and it went in some very 91 00:03:58,229 --> 00:03:56,319 interesting directions 92 00:04:00,470 --> 00:03:58,239 and brought to light many of the 93 00:04:02,710 --> 00:04:00,480 phenomena those of us intimately 94 00:04:05,670 --> 00:04:02,720 familiar with this topic have talked 95 00:04:07,990 --> 00:04:05,680 about for a very long time 96 00:04:10,789 --> 00:04:08,000 now i also want to point out that some 97 00:04:13,589 --> 00:04:10,799 are suspicious of any and all current 98 00:04:15,509 --> 00:04:13,599 and former employees of the so-called 99 00:04:17,270 --> 00:04:15,519 government intelligence services 100 00:04:18,629 --> 00:04:17,280 specifically from within the u.s 101 00:04:21,110 --> 00:04:18,639 government 102 00:04:23,590 --> 00:04:21,120 now on the one hand i understand this 103 00:04:25,990 --> 00:04:23,600 caution i certainly think such people 104 00:04:28,550 --> 00:04:26,000 need to earn our trust 105 00:04:30,870 --> 00:04:28,560 that said when they demonstrate a 106 00:04:33,909 --> 00:04:30,880 repeated behavior that suggests their 107 00:04:35,909 --> 00:04:33,919 cause now aligns with ours 108 00:04:37,430 --> 00:04:35,919 i think it's short-sighted to dismiss 109 00:04:38,870 --> 00:04:37,440 them outright 110 00:04:40,469 --> 00:04:38,880 simply because of their former 111 00:04:42,550 --> 00:04:40,479 employment 112 00:04:45,510 --> 00:04:42,560 again from my point of view i think 113 00:04:47,830 --> 00:04:45,520 that's short-sighted i think a program 114 00:04:50,550 --> 00:04:47,840 like ossap and a book like this that 115 00:04:53,270 --> 00:04:50,560 publishes the findings makes them public 116 00:04:55,670 --> 00:04:53,280 is a very good thing for our cause it 117 00:04:57,030 --> 00:04:55,680 moves the possibility of disclosure with 118 00:04:59,909 --> 00:04:57,040 a capital d 119 00:05:01,990 --> 00:04:59,919 forward it makes it more likely 120 00:05:04,230 --> 00:05:02,000 i also think we have to be careful not 121 00:05:06,629 --> 00:05:04,240 to end up inadvertently speaking out of 122 00:05:08,629 --> 00:05:06,639 both sides of our mouth by on the one 123 00:05:10,390 --> 00:05:08,639 hand claiming that we're frustrated that 124 00:05:12,790 --> 00:05:10,400 we never get disclosure 125 00:05:14,950 --> 00:05:12,800 or revelations from the government 126 00:05:17,909 --> 00:05:14,960 pertaining to their investigations into 127 00:05:20,070 --> 00:05:17,919 ufos and then on the other hand when 128 00:05:21,990 --> 00:05:20,080 details regarding those programs do come 129 00:05:25,749 --> 00:05:22,000 forward we reject them simply because 130 00:05:30,310 --> 00:05:28,310 okay with that preamble aside let's jump 131 00:05:32,550 --> 00:05:30,320 right into the book there's so many 132 00:05:35,270 --> 00:05:32,560 important nuggets to get to 133 00:05:38,390 --> 00:05:35,280 but first of all let's discuss what this 134 00:05:40,230 --> 00:05:38,400 book is about what it was covering and 135 00:05:42,629 --> 00:05:40,240 for this we turn to the introduction 136 00:05:44,150 --> 00:05:42,639 when george knapp outlines the contents 137 00:05:46,230 --> 00:05:44,160 of the book 138 00:05:48,950 --> 00:05:46,240 quote this book describes the first 139 00:05:51,670 --> 00:05:48,960 steps on this 13-year rocky road that 140 00:05:54,629 --> 00:05:51,680 culminated in the release of the uaptf 141 00:05:57,110 --> 00:05:54,639 report in june 2021 142 00:05:58,870 --> 00:05:57,120 it describes the genesis and execution 143 00:06:00,110 --> 00:05:58,880 of a unique program 144 00:06:02,950 --> 00:06:00,120 run 145 00:06:06,070 --> 00:06:02,960 2008-2010 from the defense intelligence 146 00:06:08,230 --> 00:06:06,080 agency the dia of the united states that 147 00:06:11,270 --> 00:06:08,240 was the first official fully funded 148 00:06:12,950 --> 00:06:11,280 study of uaps since the termination in 149 00:06:15,510 --> 00:06:12,960 1969 150 00:06:18,710 --> 00:06:15,520 of the infamous project blue book which 151 00:06:21,590 --> 00:06:18,720 was run by the united states air force 152 00:06:25,110 --> 00:06:21,600 the name of this covert two-year 22 153 00:06:27,590 --> 00:06:25,120 million dollar dia program was advanced 154 00:06:29,909 --> 00:06:27,600 aerospace weapon system applications 155 00:06:31,749 --> 00:06:29,919 program awsap 156 00:06:34,469 --> 00:06:31,759 as the public is now fully aware the 157 00:06:38,469 --> 00:06:34,479 united states government has steadfastly 158 00:06:40,469 --> 00:06:38,479 denied any interest in or work on uap 159 00:06:42,070 --> 00:06:40,479 for more than 50 years 160 00:06:45,510 --> 00:06:42,080 beginning with the publication of an 161 00:06:47,590 --> 00:06:45,520 article in the new york times in 2017 162 00:06:49,430 --> 00:06:47,600 the world now knows that these denials 163 00:06:51,270 --> 00:06:49,440 were not factual 164 00:06:54,150 --> 00:06:51,280 there were two remarkable things about 165 00:06:54,950 --> 00:06:54,160 asap the first was that it existed at 166 00:06:58,790 --> 00:06:54,960 all 167 00:07:01,029 --> 00:06:58,800 between september 2008 and december 2010 168 00:07:03,510 --> 00:07:01,039 the pentagon spent those millions 169 00:07:06,070 --> 00:07:03,520 investigating uaps as well as the 170 00:07:07,430 --> 00:07:06,080 paranormal and psychic correlates to 171 00:07:09,670 --> 00:07:07,440 uaps 172 00:07:11,589 --> 00:07:09,680 the second remarkable feature that has 173 00:07:14,469 --> 00:07:11,599 been secret until the publication of 174 00:07:16,070 --> 00:07:14,479 this book was the breadth and scope of 175 00:07:18,629 --> 00:07:16,080 asap 176 00:07:20,950 --> 00:07:18,639 the details of dozens of controversial 177 00:07:23,029 --> 00:07:20,960 projects that comprised this large 178 00:07:24,950 --> 00:07:23,039 program are now revealed for the first 179 00:07:26,150 --> 00:07:24,960 time in these pages 180 00:07:27,909 --> 00:07:26,160 unquote 181 00:07:30,150 --> 00:07:27,919 and now quoting from a later section in 182 00:07:33,670 --> 00:07:30,160 that same introduction something very 183 00:07:35,670 --> 00:07:33,680 very fascinating is discussed i quote 184 00:07:37,589 --> 00:07:35,680 as this book describes for the first 185 00:07:40,469 --> 00:07:37,599 time the scope of the asap 186 00:07:43,510 --> 00:07:40,479 investigations at dia which were run by 187 00:07:46,070 --> 00:07:43,520 bigelow aerospace advanced space studies 188 00:07:48,550 --> 00:07:46,080 was much broader and delved deeply into 189 00:07:50,790 --> 00:07:48,560 the psychic and paranormal relationships 190 00:07:53,029 --> 00:07:50,800 to uap interactions 191 00:07:55,749 --> 00:07:53,039 as appendix 1 in this book lays out in 192 00:07:57,670 --> 00:07:55,759 full detail an enormous body of data 193 00:08:00,230 --> 00:07:57,680 concerning the psychic and paranormal 194 00:08:01,830 --> 00:08:00,240 connections to uap interactions 195 00:08:03,990 --> 00:08:01,840 currently exists at the defense 196 00:08:06,550 --> 00:08:04,000 intelligence agency 197 00:08:08,869 --> 00:08:06,560 shortly after the contract award asap 198 00:08:11,749 --> 00:08:08,879 personnel chose to launch the uap 199 00:08:14,230 --> 00:08:11,759 program with as broad a scope as 200 00:08:16,950 --> 00:08:14,240 possible the decision to research 201 00:08:20,070 --> 00:08:16,960 paranormal phenomena that co-locate with 202 00:08:22,469 --> 00:08:20,080 uaps and to examine psychic effects in 203 00:08:25,189 --> 00:08:22,479 uap witnesses in addition to 204 00:08:27,909 --> 00:08:25,199 scrutinizing the core uap technology 205 00:08:30,629 --> 00:08:27,919 itself was not taken lightly because of 206 00:08:32,469 --> 00:08:30,639 the controversial nature of the uap 207 00:08:35,750 --> 00:08:32,479 paranormal debate 208 00:08:39,110 --> 00:08:35,760 a significant constituency existed both 209 00:08:41,509 --> 00:08:39,120 inside and outside dia that argued asap 210 00:08:43,909 --> 00:08:41,519 should only focus on researching the 211 00:08:46,230 --> 00:08:43,919 technology of uaps 212 00:08:49,190 --> 00:08:46,240 we were very fortunate that the asap 213 00:08:51,829 --> 00:08:49,200 program management at dia agreed to the 214 00:08:54,389 --> 00:08:51,839 expansive scope of the program since it 215 00:08:57,990 --> 00:08:54,399 meant that a much broader perspective of 216 00:09:00,310 --> 00:08:58,000 uap was integrated into every aspect of 217 00:09:01,430 --> 00:09:00,320 osap investigation from the very 218 00:09:03,990 --> 00:09:01,440 beginning 219 00:09:05,829 --> 00:09:04,000 the logic behind adopting this strategy 220 00:09:08,230 --> 00:09:05,839 came from many years of boots on the 221 00:09:11,430 --> 00:09:08,240 ground experience in investigating the 222 00:09:15,110 --> 00:09:11,440 uap at robert t bigelow's national 223 00:09:17,509 --> 00:09:15,120 institute of discovery sciences nids 224 00:09:21,190 --> 00:09:17,519 as well as decades of experience of 225 00:09:23,509 --> 00:09:21,200 offsap advisors investigating uaps 226 00:09:26,070 --> 00:09:23,519 unquote and by the way in regards to 227 00:09:28,550 --> 00:09:26,080 that last section i just read regarding 228 00:09:30,150 --> 00:09:28,560 advisors to asap 229 00:09:32,630 --> 00:09:30,160 this is speaking of venerable 230 00:09:34,710 --> 00:09:32,640 researchers such as dr jacques villa and 231 00:09:37,190 --> 00:09:34,720 dr eric davis 232 00:09:40,550 --> 00:09:37,200 from my perspective that was another 233 00:09:43,190 --> 00:09:40,560 check in favor of this research of this 234 00:09:45,670 --> 00:09:43,200 investigation of this entire program 235 00:09:47,670 --> 00:09:45,680 when you're relying on the baselines 236 00:09:49,829 --> 00:09:47,680 established by researchers such as 237 00:09:52,230 --> 00:09:49,839 jacques valle and eric davis who have 238 00:09:54,870 --> 00:09:52,240 been in this field for decades you know 239 00:09:56,790 --> 00:09:54,880 you're in good hands to begin with 240 00:09:59,509 --> 00:09:56,800 so that gives you some sense of the 241 00:10:01,829 --> 00:09:59,519 depth and breadth of this program it was 242 00:10:04,310 --> 00:10:01,839 a very ambitious endeavor to say the 243 00:10:07,269 --> 00:10:04,320 least and i for one applaud their 244 00:10:09,430 --> 00:10:07,279 efforts to connect these other aspects 245 00:10:11,829 --> 00:10:09,440 of high strangeness to the sightings of 246 00:10:13,590 --> 00:10:11,839 uap because clearly the literature 247 00:10:16,470 --> 00:10:13,600 behind this phenomenon that has been 248 00:10:19,030 --> 00:10:16,480 built over decades supports this notion 249 00:10:21,509 --> 00:10:19,040 this is the direction the research needs 250 00:10:24,870 --> 00:10:21,519 to go in and indeed these researchers 251 00:10:27,829 --> 00:10:24,880 followed that very course of action 252 00:10:29,670 --> 00:10:27,839 now let's get to asap versus atip 253 00:10:30,790 --> 00:10:29,680 because as was pointed out in the 254 00:10:33,350 --> 00:10:30,800 introduction 255 00:10:36,310 --> 00:10:33,360 there has been some misunderstanding and 256 00:10:39,030 --> 00:10:36,320 some misstating of facts inadvertently 257 00:10:40,710 --> 00:10:39,040 that are clarified in this book 258 00:10:45,030 --> 00:10:40,720 and now quoting from a later section of 259 00:10:47,110 --> 00:10:45,040 the book i quote asap bass was not a tip 260 00:10:49,990 --> 00:10:47,120 the atip moniker arose from an 261 00:10:52,150 --> 00:10:50,000 unclassified nickname that was inserted 262 00:10:54,710 --> 00:10:52,160 into a letter that was sent from senator 263 00:10:57,030 --> 00:10:54,720 harry reid to the deputy secretary of 264 00:11:00,870 --> 00:10:57,040 defense requesting the creation of a 265 00:11:03,430 --> 00:11:00,880 special access program sap this letter 266 00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:03,440 is described fully in chapter 10. 267 00:11:09,030 --> 00:11:06,720 because lakatsky the dia program manager 268 00:11:10,630 --> 00:11:09,040 wished to protect the ossap name for 269 00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:10,640 security reasons 270 00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:13,600 atip was a made-up substitute name for 271 00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:16,560 reid's letter to describe the asap 272 00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:19,120 after asap had shut down the a-tip 273 00:11:23,430 --> 00:11:20,880 designation was used to describe a 274 00:11:25,350 --> 00:11:23,440 completely separate small initiative 275 00:11:28,150 --> 00:11:25,360 that was underway at the pentagon to 276 00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:28,160 study uaps encountered by military 277 00:11:31,509 --> 00:11:29,440 personnel 278 00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:31,519 atip involved a small group of people 279 00:11:36,470 --> 00:11:34,160 working on the uap problem with direct 280 00:11:39,269 --> 00:11:36,480 knowledge of their superiors when their 281 00:11:41,750 --> 00:11:39,279 day jobs allowed them to the new york 282 00:11:44,310 --> 00:11:41,760 times article created enormous confusion 283 00:11:47,269 --> 00:11:44,320 by mistakenly linking the 22 million 284 00:11:50,389 --> 00:11:47,279 funding to the small informal atip 285 00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:50,399 initiative the 22 million dollars was 286 00:11:56,629 --> 00:11:53,920 specifically targeted only to awsap 287 00:12:00,550 --> 00:11:56,639 atip as used by the new york times was 288 00:12:02,470 --> 00:12:00,560 not asap and asap was not atip the 22 289 00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:02,480 million was contracted through the 290 00:12:08,949 --> 00:12:05,600 defense intelligence agency into ossap 291 00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:08,959 to evaluate the threat potential of uaps 292 00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:11,760 not a dollar of that sum went to atip 293 00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:14,000 despite widespread statements over the 294 00:12:17,670 --> 00:12:15,680 last several years 295 00:12:19,910 --> 00:12:17,680 unquote 296 00:12:21,670 --> 00:12:19,920 now hopefully that sheds some light on 297 00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:21,680 this complicated matter 298 00:12:24,790 --> 00:12:23,279 and it's understandable that there would 299 00:12:27,269 --> 00:12:24,800 be confusion 300 00:12:29,509 --> 00:12:27,279 because if you caught that the moniker 301 00:12:33,269 --> 00:12:29,519 a-tip was used on two different 302 00:12:35,430 --> 00:12:33,279 occasions it was used as a nickname only 303 00:12:37,829 --> 00:12:35,440 by ossap by 304 00:12:40,470 --> 00:12:37,839 individuals who want to to keep the true 305 00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:40,480 name secret and then later on people 306 00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:42,800 like luella zondo were involved in a 307 00:12:48,550 --> 00:12:45,600 different a-tip that used that same name 308 00:12:51,829 --> 00:12:48,560 but it was not the a-tip connected to 309 00:12:53,430 --> 00:12:51,839 assat so i hope that clarifies it and as 310 00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:53,440 was pointed out in that section of the 311 00:12:59,430 --> 00:12:56,480 book the 22 million dollars in funding 312 00:13:01,829 --> 00:12:59,440 very importantly went to osap 313 00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:01,839 and what was going on between 2008 and 314 00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:04,880 2010 a very complicated matter but 315 00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:07,600 hopefully that serves to bring some 316 00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:09,440 clarification to the matter and set the 317 00:13:13,750 --> 00:13:12,160 record straight once and for all 318 00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:13,760 okay now that we've got some of the 319 00:13:18,949 --> 00:13:16,560 names the monikers the designations 320 00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:18,959 somewhat clearer in our minds now 321 00:13:23,949 --> 00:13:21,680 let's now turn to the meat and bones of 322 00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:23,959 this book discussing the actual 323 00:13:28,629 --> 00:13:27,040 investigations into different phenomena 324 00:13:30,629 --> 00:13:28,639 and just in case there are some of you 325 00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,639 in the audience who are not familiar 326 00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:32,480 let's touch on a portion of the book 327 00:13:37,509 --> 00:13:35,200 that describes the background behind 328 00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:37,519 skinwalker ranch and why it has been so 329 00:13:43,590 --> 00:13:41,279 central not only to the question of ufos 330 00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:43,600 but to high strangeness and anomalous 331 00:13:47,189 --> 00:13:45,680 phenomena in general 332 00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:47,199 quoting from the book 333 00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:50,480 since 1994 the 500 acre property known 334 00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:52,480 as skinwalker ranch located in 335 00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:55,120 northeastern utah has been continuously 336 00:14:00,389 --> 00:13:57,600 studied by humans and sensors 337 00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:00,399 metallic uaps flying orbs of varying 338 00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:03,680 colors otherworldly creatures discarnate 339 00:14:09,509 --> 00:14:06,639 voices poltergeist electromagnetic 340 00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:09,519 anomalies and orange portals have 341 00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:12,160 co-located as well as materialized 342 00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:14,320 separately on the property 343 00:14:18,150 --> 00:14:16,240 these extraordinary phenomena have been 344 00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:18,160 witnessed by scores of independent 345 00:14:24,550 --> 00:14:19,920 visitors to the ranch almost 346 00:14:27,430 --> 00:14:24,560 continuously between 1994 and 2021. 347 00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:27,440 james lekatsky and jonathan axelrod are 348 00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:29,360 two of the primary characters in this 349 00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:31,600 book and both had read hunt for the 350 00:14:36,710 --> 00:14:34,240 skinwalker by 2007 351 00:14:39,189 --> 00:14:36,720 in turn as described in detail in 352 00:14:42,470 --> 00:14:39,199 chapter five the book was the major 353 00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:42,480 stimulus for lakatsky contacting bigelow 354 00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:44,399 in july 2007 355 00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:47,040 and subsequently visiting the ranch 356 00:14:52,629 --> 00:14:49,920 the rest as they say is history 357 00:14:55,910 --> 00:14:52,639 thus an eerie cause and effect lineage 358 00:14:58,949 --> 00:14:55,920 exists beginning in 1996 with ned's 359 00:15:01,110 --> 00:14:58,959 research forays onto skinwalker ranch 360 00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:01,120 lickatsky and axelrod reading hunt for 361 00:15:07,829 --> 00:15:04,079 the skinwalker in 2007 continuing 362 00:15:10,870 --> 00:15:07,839 through the creation of ossap in 2008 363 00:15:14,629 --> 00:15:10,880 then of atip years later and eventually 364 00:15:17,509 --> 00:15:14,639 to the ua ptf in 2018 365 00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:17,519 like a creepy miasma skinwalker ranch 366 00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:19,440 lurked behind the creation of these 367 00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:22,320 organizations and its baleful influence 368 00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:24,240 was felt by their most important 369 00:15:29,829 --> 00:15:26,880 participants unquote 370 00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:29,839 now let's get to actual encounters that 371 00:15:34,629 --> 00:15:31,920 happened for the individuals involved 372 00:15:36,470 --> 00:15:34,639 with the teams investigating matters at 373 00:15:38,829 --> 00:15:36,480 skinwalker ranch 374 00:15:41,749 --> 00:15:38,839 quoting from a later section of the book 375 00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:41,759 quote all three were seasoned operatives 376 00:15:45,189 --> 00:15:43,440 who were equally comfortable out in the 377 00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:45,199 field or in briefing rooms in the 378 00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:46,399 pentagon 379 00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:49,600 on that warm july night in 2009 as they 380 00:15:53,749 --> 00:15:51,680 strode confidently on the track leading 381 00:15:56,069 --> 00:15:53,759 west on the ranch they were already 382 00:15:58,150 --> 00:15:56,079 scoping out the badlands terrain for 383 00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:58,160 places to deploy their technological 384 00:16:01,590 --> 00:15:59,440 assets 385 00:16:03,509 --> 00:16:01,600 about a half mile into their hike the 386 00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:03,519 temperature suddenly dropped like a 387 00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:07,360 stone from 75 degrees the air was now 20 388 00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:09,040 degrees colder 389 00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:11,040 all three stopped and silently looked at 390 00:16:15,509 --> 00:16:13,440 each other there was no wind blowing the 391 00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:15,519 air was still and the zone they were 392 00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:18,480 standing in gave them a deep chill 393 00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:20,959 axelrod silently raised his hand and 394 00:16:25,110 --> 00:16:23,040 motioned backwards 395 00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:25,120 all three walked backwards and within a 396 00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:27,600 couple of yards the temperature had gone 397 00:16:31,829 --> 00:16:29,600 back to high 70s 398 00:16:34,389 --> 00:16:31,839 axelrod motioned forward and the three 399 00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:34,399 moved silently in unison again they 400 00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:36,800 walked into a wall of coldness 401 00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:39,600 weatherfront muttered costigan probably 402 00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:41,680 answered axelrod and again the trio 403 00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:42,959 retreated 404 00:16:47,670 --> 00:16:45,040 again they exited the wall of chilled 405 00:16:49,509 --> 00:16:47,680 air into the warm night three times they 406 00:16:51,670 --> 00:16:49,519 repeated the maneuver and three times 407 00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:51,680 the sharp boundary that defined the wall 408 00:16:55,350 --> 00:16:54,000 of cold air remained in the same 409 00:16:57,749 --> 00:16:55,360 location 410 00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:57,759 let's move on axelrod said and the trio 411 00:17:02,150 --> 00:16:59,759 resumed their journey west 412 00:17:04,390 --> 00:17:02,160 kostagan began scanning the environment 413 00:17:07,029 --> 00:17:04,400 and all around him the bleak badlands 414 00:17:08,309 --> 00:17:07,039 landscape looked eerie in night vision 415 00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:08,319 green 416 00:17:12,789 --> 00:17:10,720 thirty yards further on all three began 417 00:17:15,350 --> 00:17:12,799 to feel anxious and as they walked 418 00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:15,360 further the anxiety deepened and turned 419 00:17:18,870 --> 00:17:16,720 into fear 420 00:17:20,069 --> 00:17:18,880 no one said anything they continued on 421 00:17:21,990 --> 00:17:20,079 their journey 422 00:17:24,789 --> 00:17:22,000 but every step they took their fears 423 00:17:27,189 --> 00:17:24,799 seemed to escalate there was no external 424 00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:27,199 reason no one wanted to be the first to 425 00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:29,360 mention the alarm they felt 426 00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:31,200 ten yards further on the fear had 427 00:17:36,230 --> 00:17:33,919 escalated to mortal fear and eventually 428 00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:36,240 axelrod raised a hand and all three 429 00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:39,200 stopped do any of you feel that axelrod 430 00:17:43,669 --> 00:17:41,440 asked his heart beating madly 431 00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:43,679 the adrenaline surging through him 432 00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:45,440 the other two acknowledged they felt 433 00:17:50,150 --> 00:17:47,200 intense alarm 434 00:17:51,909 --> 00:17:50,160 all three looked around a full 360 to 435 00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:51,919 find what was causing this nameless 436 00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:52,880 dread 437 00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:54,640 a fear for their lives that was more 438 00:18:00,150 --> 00:17:57,120 intense than they had ever felt 439 00:18:02,310 --> 00:18:00,160 axelrod raised his arm in motion forward 440 00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:02,320 all three swallowed and slowly began 441 00:18:06,230 --> 00:18:03,840 moving forward 442 00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:06,240 again the fear escalated the three were 443 00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:08,320 sweating profusely 444 00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:10,720 weight cost again whispered hoarsely and 445 00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:12,640 his trembling hand pointed directly 446 00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:14,559 westward on the track 447 00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:16,720 50 yards ahead of him the ghostly 448 00:18:21,110 --> 00:18:18,720 outlines of the three old homesteads 449 00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:21,120 were now in view but costigan was 450 00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:23,200 focused on something else 451 00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:25,760 directly ahead of the trio on the track 452 00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:28,000 cost against night vision scope showed 453 00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:30,640 an oval area of blackness 454 00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:33,039 about eight feet tall surrendered by the 455 00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:35,840 knight scope's normal green color it was 456 00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:38,640 as if kostagan said later all light had 457 00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:40,720 been extinguished in that dark oval 458 00:18:43,750 --> 00:18:41,760 shape 459 00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:43,760 kostagon felt the black structure was 460 00:18:48,549 --> 00:18:46,320 radiating a menacing presence neither 461 00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:48,559 axelrod or wilson could make out 462 00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:50,960 anything definitive in the gloom 463 00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:53,440 but as if in psychological agreement 464 00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:55,600 with what costagen was seeing they 465 00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:57,280 instinctively acknowledged that the 466 00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:59,200 source of their fear was 50 yards 467 00:19:03,190 --> 00:19:00,960 further down the track 468 00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:03,200 at that point all three felt close to 469 00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:05,679 their breaking point each one convinced 470 00:19:09,830 --> 00:19:07,600 that continuing toward the dark oval 471 00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:09,840 shape would lead to certain death 472 00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:11,520 without a word the three began to 473 00:19:15,990 --> 00:19:14,160 retrace their steps as if guided by the 474 00:19:18,390 --> 00:19:16,000 same direct order 475 00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:18,400 slowly as they walked back the terror 476 00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:20,080 began to subside 477 00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:22,400 as if on a real stat the further they 478 00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:24,480 retreated from the mysterious black oval 479 00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:26,880 shape on the track the less fear they 480 00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:27,840 felt 481 00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:30,000 after a hundred yards the fury had left 482 00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:32,799 them silently the three walked back to 483 00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:35,120 the command and control center trailer 484 00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:37,440 located on the east end of the ranch for 485 00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:39,440 the debriefing 486 00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:41,840 a couple of years later asap bass 487 00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:44,000 program manager kelleher interviewed 488 00:19:49,029 --> 00:19:46,559 axelrod and kostagan separately about 489 00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:49,039 the events on the ranch that night 490 00:19:52,710 --> 00:19:50,960 both remained baffled regarding the 491 00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:52,720 source of the fear and the interview 492 00:19:57,430 --> 00:19:55,120 confirmed that only kostagan saw the 493 00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:57,440 black oval shape through a night vision 494 00:20:00,150 --> 00:19:58,320 scope 495 00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:00,160 the implication was that the oval 496 00:20:04,710 --> 00:20:01,919 structure could not be seen in the 497 00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:04,720 visible wavelengths 400 to 700 498 00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:07,280 nanometers and had only been illuminated 499 00:20:11,909 --> 00:20:10,320 above 850 nanometers 500 00:20:14,149 --> 00:20:11,919 unquote 501 00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:14,159 now that is i'm sure you'll agree a 502 00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:15,760 fascinating account 503 00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:18,240 these are three very credible witnesses 504 00:20:23,270 --> 00:20:20,480 each with a distinguished background 505 00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:23,280 and each were overcome with fear when 506 00:20:28,789 --> 00:20:25,840 they encountered this oval blackness 507 00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:28,799 even though again as was just stated the 508 00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:31,200 oval blackness was only observable 509 00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:32,880 through the night vision goggles it 510 00:20:37,990 --> 00:20:36,240 wasn't observable to the naked eye 511 00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:38,000 now of course many will look at this and 512 00:20:41,350 --> 00:20:39,840 assume this indicates something 513 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:41,360 paranormal 514 00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:43,760 something spiritual perhaps even 515 00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:45,280 but i want to encourage you to think a 516 00:20:50,789 --> 00:20:47,840 little broader about this for instance 517 00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:50,799 what if this is a kind of technology 518 00:20:55,190 --> 00:20:53,120 indeed some have suggested that what is 519 00:20:57,830 --> 00:20:55,200 going on at skinwalker ranch may be 520 00:20:59,029 --> 00:20:57,840 evidence of an ancient sophisticated 521 00:21:01,270 --> 00:20:59,039 technology 522 00:21:04,149 --> 00:21:01,280 perhaps hundreds of thousands or even 523 00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:04,159 millions of years old and of course yes 524 00:21:09,029 --> 00:21:06,720 that raises all sorts of questions about 525 00:21:11,669 --> 00:21:09,039 the orthodoxy of our history our 526 00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:11,679 mainstream history but nevertheless when 527 00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:14,159 you think about it from a military point 528 00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:15,120 of view 529 00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:17,760 if you could induce this kind of fear in 530 00:21:21,669 --> 00:21:20,480 human beings it would be a remarkable 531 00:21:23,270 --> 00:21:21,679 deterrent 532 00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:23,280 and that's exactly what happened for 533 00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:26,320 these three highly trained individuals 534 00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:28,480 again when it comes to what's going on 535 00:21:32,870 --> 00:21:30,640 at skinwalker ranch and other phenomena 536 00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:32,880 we discuss from this book we should keep 537 00:21:37,909 --> 00:21:35,039 an open mind we should be careful not to 538 00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:37,919 jump to conclusions about spiritual 539 00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:40,400 versus technological and matters like 540 00:21:44,149 --> 00:21:41,520 that 541 00:21:45,990 --> 00:21:44,159 now comes an equally fascinating aspect 542 00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:46,000 of this book that deals with the 543 00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:48,480 so-called hitchhiker phenomenon 544 00:21:52,549 --> 00:21:50,480 now for those familiar with more 545 00:21:55,750 --> 00:21:52,559 paranormal research this is often 546 00:21:57,669 --> 00:21:55,760 referred to as attachments these are 547 00:21:59,750 --> 00:21:57,679 seemingly entities of a sort 548 00:22:02,549 --> 00:21:59,760 intelligences apparently 549 00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:02,559 that somehow attached to people become 550 00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:04,960 associated with people and that this 551 00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:07,760 association extends beyond time and 552 00:22:11,350 --> 00:22:08,720 space 553 00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:11,360 meaning that very specifically even if 554 00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:13,760 an individual initially encounters one 555 00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:15,600 of these entities 556 00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:17,679 at a place like skinwalker ranch or 557 00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:19,679 another so-called thin place that we've 558 00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:22,720 discussed on previous podcasts 559 00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:25,200 when they return home even if that home 560 00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:27,600 is thousands of miles away could be the 561 00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:29,440 other side of the country could be the 562 00:22:34,549 --> 00:22:32,159 other side of the world for that matter 563 00:22:37,270 --> 00:22:34,559 they continue to have apparent 564 00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:37,280 interactions with these entities these 565 00:22:42,390 --> 00:22:39,840 entities show up in a variety of ways 566 00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:42,400 making it very clear that they are not 567 00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:44,640 done with the individuals they initially 568 00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:47,760 encountered and even more fascinatingly 569 00:22:52,630 --> 00:22:50,480 and for some people concerningly the 570 00:22:55,110 --> 00:22:52,640 association extends beyond the 571 00:22:57,590 --> 00:22:55,120 individual who had the initial contact 572 00:23:00,710 --> 00:22:57,600 at a place like skinwalker ranch 573 00:23:03,990 --> 00:23:00,720 indeed as we find out in the book 574 00:23:06,549 --> 00:23:04,000 this association often extends to family 575 00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:06,559 and friends and people in the general 576 00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:09,039 neighborhood in fact in the same way 577 00:23:14,149 --> 00:23:11,600 that scientists will try and track a 578 00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:14,159 disease contagion to determine how it's 579 00:23:20,149 --> 00:23:17,039 spread you can follow a kind of social 580 00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:20,159 contagion model with this phenomenon and 581 00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:21,280 see how 582 00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:23,760 the entities move from one person to 583 00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:26,240 another to another through apparent 584 00:23:31,750 --> 00:23:29,760 social contacts again very fascinating 585 00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:31,760 and again for some people very 586 00:23:36,149 --> 00:23:34,000 concerning let's now jump to a section 587 00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:36,159 of the book that discusses this matter 588 00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:37,840 in greater detail 589 00:23:42,950 --> 00:23:40,559 quoting from the book again quote 10 590 00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:42,960 days after the ranch episode keller herr 591 00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:45,760 received a call from axelrod he sounded 592 00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:47,760 puzzled as he recounted that almost 593 00:23:52,789 --> 00:23:50,240 immediately after he had returned home 594 00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:52,799 from skinwalker ranch strange things had 595 00:23:57,590 --> 00:23:55,840 begun to happen in their home not to him 596 00:23:59,590 --> 00:23:57,600 but to his family 597 00:24:02,230 --> 00:23:59,600 axelrod recounted that on the previous 598 00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:02,240 night at about 2 am while he was asleep 599 00:24:07,029 --> 00:24:04,880 beside his wife ruth she had seen a 600 00:24:09,430 --> 00:24:07,039 large black humanoid shape walking 601 00:24:11,909 --> 00:24:09,440 towards her in their bedroom 602 00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:11,919 ruth did not scare easily but she had 603 00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:14,080 felt alarmed and turned on the light but 604 00:24:17,269 --> 00:24:15,520 saw nothing 605 00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:17,279 ten minutes later she clearly heard 606 00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:19,919 footsteps coming slowly up the stairs 607 00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:21,840 she slipped out of her bed and walked to 608 00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:24,720 the landing but there was nobody there 609 00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:26,640 quickly she walked to her teenage son's 610 00:24:30,149 --> 00:24:28,720 bedrooms and saw they were both asleep 611 00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:30,159 in their beds 612 00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:32,480 axelrod said his wife was not completely 613 00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:34,000 freaked out but the episode had 614 00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:35,520 concerned her 615 00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:37,919 during a second call about a month later 616 00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:40,720 axelrod reported an alarming escalation 617 00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:43,840 in anomalous activity at their home 618 00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:45,520 all of the activity appeared to be 619 00:24:50,230 --> 00:24:47,760 directed against his family 620 00:24:51,269 --> 00:24:50,240 on several occasions axelrod was out of 621 00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:51,279 town 622 00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:53,440 axelrod reported that while he was on 623 00:24:57,269 --> 00:24:55,360 one mission overseas his 624 00:24:59,430 --> 00:24:57,279 sixteen-year-old son paul 625 00:25:01,830 --> 00:24:59,440 woke at night with multiple small blue 626 00:25:04,149 --> 00:25:01,840 orbs flying around his room 627 00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:04,159 occasionally one would fly very close to 628 00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:04,880 him 629 00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:06,720 according to paul the orbs appeared to 630 00:25:11,909 --> 00:25:09,440 be moving under some kind of control 631 00:25:13,750 --> 00:25:11,919 when he began yelling his mother ran 632 00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:13,760 into the room but the orbs were 633 00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:15,520 instantly gone 634 00:25:19,669 --> 00:25:17,200 even after the bizarre night with the 635 00:25:22,230 --> 00:25:19,679 orbs ruth continued seeing shadow-like 636 00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:22,240 figures in her home and she routinely 637 00:25:27,029 --> 00:25:24,640 heard loud noises down in the kitchen 638 00:25:29,269 --> 00:25:27,039 after everybody had gone to bed 639 00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:29,279 ruth and jonathan axelrod were certain 640 00:25:33,590 --> 00:25:31,760 that these events had begun after he had 641 00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:33,600 returned home from his trip to 642 00:25:37,190 --> 00:25:35,200 skinwalker ranch 643 00:25:39,190 --> 00:25:37,200 later an even more bizarre event with 644 00:25:41,590 --> 00:25:39,200 strong links to the skinwalker ranch 645 00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:41,600 erupted in the axelrod home 646 00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:44,000 again jonathan was out of town on a work 647 00:25:48,310 --> 00:25:46,320 assignment it was after midnight and 648 00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:48,320 ruth had turned off all the lights in 649 00:25:53,190 --> 00:25:50,400 the kitchen and was preparing to go 650 00:25:54,789 --> 00:25:53,200 upstairs when her eye caught a movement 651 00:25:56,390 --> 00:25:54,799 out in the yard 652 00:25:59,110 --> 00:25:56,400 she walked over to the window for a 653 00:26:01,510 --> 00:25:59,120 better look then froze as she witnessed 654 00:26:02,950 --> 00:26:01,520 one of the most bizarre sights she had 655 00:26:05,029 --> 00:26:02,960 ever beheld 656 00:26:07,029 --> 00:26:05,039 standing upright and leaning against one 657 00:26:10,390 --> 00:26:07,039 of the trees at the perimeter of her 658 00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:10,400 yard was a huge wolf-like creature 659 00:26:15,029 --> 00:26:12,640 she saw the creature plainly in a dim 660 00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:15,039 night light it had long hair and looked 661 00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:17,600 like a wolf but it was standing on two 662 00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:20,559 legs ruth stood paralyzed feeling both 663 00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:23,039 confusion and a kind of dread 664 00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:24,640 the creature appeared to be staring 665 00:26:29,669 --> 00:26:27,760 right at her its gaze was not friendly 666 00:26:32,390 --> 00:26:29,679 she continued to stare at this eerie 667 00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:32,400 sight trying to fathom the impossibility 668 00:26:36,950 --> 00:26:34,880 of an upright wolf-like creature in a 669 00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:36,960 quiet upper-middle-class suburban 670 00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:38,640 virginia neighborhood 671 00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:40,480 the creature then took one last look at 672 00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:43,600 her turned and walked slowly on two legs 673 00:26:47,909 --> 00:26:45,760 further into the tree line within 674 00:26:50,230 --> 00:26:47,919 minutes she had lost sight of it she 675 00:26:52,149 --> 00:26:50,240 stood there a long time trying to 676 00:26:54,870 --> 00:26:52,159 determine if she had just had a very 677 00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:54,880 intense hallucination or if her mind was 678 00:26:59,350 --> 00:26:56,880 beginning to go 679 00:27:01,909 --> 00:26:59,360 three days later at about 10 30 on a 680 00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:01,919 bright saturday morning the two teenage 681 00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:04,320 axelrod sons were downstairs in the 682 00:27:08,870 --> 00:27:06,640 living room when paul got up to stretch 683 00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:08,880 his legs a movement in the yard caught 684 00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:12,000 his eye and he gasped in astonishment at 685 00:27:16,950 --> 00:27:14,640 the sight of a huge wolf-like creature 686 00:27:19,110 --> 00:27:16,960 standing on two legs in the backyard 687 00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:19,120 staring straight at him 688 00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:21,440 alerted by his brother's gasp michael 689 00:27:26,549 --> 00:27:23,440 jumped up and saw the seven foot tall 690 00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:26,559 wolf gazing menacingly at them the 691 00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:28,080 animal appeared to be completely 692 00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:30,480 comfortable standing on two legs 693 00:27:35,269 --> 00:27:33,760 both axelrod boys felt a sense of fear 694 00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:35,279 suddenly the beast took off running 695 00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:37,600 towards the tree line its long brown 696 00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:40,720 black hair blowing in the rapid movement 697 00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:43,200 the beast ran easily and fluidly on its 698 00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:45,360 hind legs with long strides seemingly 699 00:27:50,549 --> 00:27:48,320 impossible for normal canine anatomy 700 00:27:52,549 --> 00:27:50,559 both voice stood in silence as the wolf 701 00:27:54,549 --> 00:27:52,559 was soon lost in the trees that bordered 702 00:27:56,389 --> 00:27:54,559 the axle rod property 703 00:27:58,310 --> 00:27:56,399 the thick insulated windows had 704 00:28:00,549 --> 00:27:58,320 prevented them from hearing any sound 705 00:28:01,510 --> 00:28:00,559 from the beast's transit across their 706 00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:01,520 yard 707 00:28:05,990 --> 00:28:03,520 a couple of hours later when ruth came 708 00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:06,000 back the boys breathlessly told their 709 00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:08,640 mother about the event ruth felt a deep 710 00:28:14,310 --> 00:28:11,120 chill as they excitedly described in 711 00:28:16,549 --> 00:28:14,320 detail an apparition identical to what 712 00:28:18,149 --> 00:28:16,559 she had seen a few nights previously and 713 00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:18,159 that she was still hoping was a 714 00:28:21,430 --> 00:28:19,520 hallucination 715 00:28:24,070 --> 00:28:21,440 unquote 716 00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:24,080 now again here i would warn us to be 717 00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:26,799 wary of our quick assumptions about what 718 00:28:31,110 --> 00:28:28,320 is going on here 719 00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:31,120 again many will see this as a spiritual 720 00:28:35,669 --> 00:28:33,440 encounter that it seems almost demonic 721 00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:35,679 in nature that somehow they are being 722 00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:38,320 attacked by evil entities 723 00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:40,159 but again one could look at it quite 724 00:28:44,149 --> 00:28:41,440 differently 725 00:28:46,070 --> 00:28:44,159 again if this is some sort of technology 726 00:28:48,870 --> 00:28:46,080 that as we've seen with elements of the 727 00:28:51,269 --> 00:28:48,880 ufo phenomenon can actually project 728 00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:51,279 experience or sites into the 729 00:28:56,070 --> 00:28:53,600 consciousness of an individual to the 730 00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:56,080 point where for the individual it is 731 00:29:00,470 --> 00:28:58,320 impossible to tell if they are actually 732 00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:00,480 seeing something in the quote-unquote 733 00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:02,640 physical world or if it's merely 734 00:29:07,190 --> 00:29:04,720 something that's being projected into 735 00:29:10,230 --> 00:29:07,200 their occipital lobe in such a way that 736 00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:10,240 it appears completely physical and real 737 00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:12,480 now of course additional scientific 738 00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:14,320 follow-up including trying to collect 739 00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:15,840 fur samples and that kind of thing would 740 00:29:18,870 --> 00:29:17,279 be very helpful 741 00:29:20,549 --> 00:29:18,880 but in the meantime we don't know 742 00:29:22,389 --> 00:29:20,559 whether or not this was a projection 743 00:29:25,190 --> 00:29:22,399 into the consciousness of these 744 00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:25,200 individuals or something physically 745 00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:27,600 manifest in the environment sometimes it 746 00:29:32,549 --> 00:29:29,919 might be either or but the bottom line 747 00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:32,559 is it could as easily be a kind of 748 00:29:37,909 --> 00:29:35,520 technology as something like an evil 749 00:29:39,750 --> 00:29:37,919 entity from some dark realm 750 00:29:41,909 --> 00:29:39,760 we again have to be very careful about 751 00:29:44,789 --> 00:29:41,919 the assumptions we jump to many of our 752 00:29:46,789 --> 00:29:44,799 assumptions are produced by for instance 753 00:29:48,230 --> 00:29:46,799 hollywood history and movies we've seen 754 00:29:51,029 --> 00:29:48,240 that we've forgotten that we've seen 755 00:29:52,789 --> 00:29:51,039 even that arise in our consciousness via 756 00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:52,799 these associations 757 00:29:56,950 --> 00:29:54,880 now in regards to the possibility that 758 00:29:58,870 --> 00:29:56,960 what is going on at skinwalker ranch is 759 00:30:00,950 --> 00:29:58,880 actually evidence of some ancient 760 00:30:03,350 --> 00:30:00,960 sophisticated technology 761 00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:03,360 i'm reminded of a science fiction show i 762 00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:04,880 saw not long ago 763 00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:06,960 where there is these robot dogs which by 764 00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:09,120 the way we have these robot-like dogs 765 00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:10,880 already boston dynamics and other 766 00:30:13,510 --> 00:30:12,559 companies have produced these kinds of 767 00:30:15,669 --> 00:30:13,520 things 768 00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:15,679 but in this particular show 769 00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:18,399 these dogs have been left behind from a 770 00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:20,480 retail job they are put in to basically 771 00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:23,520 protect a store from thieves 772 00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:26,080 and long after a kind of apocalypse had 773 00:30:29,669 --> 00:30:27,279 happened 774 00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:29,679 these robot dogs were still in place 775 00:30:33,590 --> 00:30:31,520 even though the context by which they 776 00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:33,600 were originally planned for had long 777 00:30:37,830 --> 00:30:35,440 since moved on 778 00:30:40,549 --> 00:30:37,840 what if something similar is going on 779 00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:40,559 here where this ancient technology was 780 00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:43,120 put in place to protect something 781 00:30:47,269 --> 00:30:44,960 hundreds of thousands or millions of 782 00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:47,279 years ago and it incorporates 783 00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:49,120 complicated technologies such as 784 00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:51,679 projecting into the consciousness of the 785 00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:54,240 individual and manipulating their 786 00:30:58,950 --> 00:30:56,880 emotive experience as well 787 00:31:01,110 --> 00:30:58,960 that may be what's going on here that 788 00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:01,120 even if something like a portal was 789 00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:03,279 opened up in ancient history because 790 00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:04,880 again portals are a big part of the 791 00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:08,000 history of skinwalker ranch as well even 792 00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:09,360 more recently 793 00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:11,919 if that happened that some civilization 794 00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:14,080 put this technology in place 795 00:31:18,950 --> 00:31:16,320 in ancient history to protect for 796 00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:18,960 instance this portal that connected to 797 00:31:23,669 --> 00:31:21,200 other parts of the galaxy or perhaps 798 00:31:25,990 --> 00:31:23,679 distant aspects of the cosmos and then 799 00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:26,000 perhaps this civilization long since 800 00:31:31,269 --> 00:31:29,039 vanished but the technology remains just 801 00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:31,279 like the robot dogs in the show that i 802 00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:34,000 watched still playing their role even 803 00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:36,000 though the initial context for which 804 00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:38,399 they were designed for had long since 805 00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:40,000 passed away 806 00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:42,240 now in regards to what i just discussed 807 00:31:46,389 --> 00:31:44,960 the idea of portals being in and around 808 00:31:48,870 --> 00:31:46,399 skinwalker ranch 809 00:31:51,269 --> 00:31:48,880 again this is part of the lore there 810 00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:51,279 even the more recent show the secret of 811 00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:54,000 skinwalker ranch has discussed this 812 00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,080 and it has been spotted by witnesses or 813 00:32:01,350 --> 00:31:58,559 at least phenomena in the sky that looks 814 00:32:03,750 --> 00:32:01,360 something like a portal opening has been 815 00:32:06,710 --> 00:32:03,760 observed and on multiple occasions 816 00:32:10,149 --> 00:32:06,720 witnesses including credible witnesses 817 00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:10,159 have seen entities supposedly climb out 818 00:32:14,230 --> 00:32:12,159 of these portals and then walk across 819 00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:14,240 the property and sometimes they can 820 00:32:19,029 --> 00:32:16,480 disappear just as easily 821 00:32:21,909 --> 00:32:19,039 likewise sometimes ufos seem to sort of 822 00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:21,919 explode into the sky out of some opening 823 00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:24,240 and then likewise when they leave they 824 00:32:28,230 --> 00:32:25,840 pass through some sort of opening in the 825 00:32:30,070 --> 00:32:28,240 sky where a different color of the sky 826 00:32:31,909 --> 00:32:30,080 almost like they're passing into perhaps 827 00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:31,919 the atmosphere of a different planet is 828 00:32:37,190 --> 00:32:34,960 observed again this is hypothetical but 829 00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:37,200 this is what it looks like that to an 830 00:32:41,029 --> 00:32:39,440 individual on the ground they see this 831 00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:41,039 the witnesses see 832 00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:43,840 entities and sometimes ufos come out of 833 00:32:48,230 --> 00:32:45,440 these things that look a lot like what 834 00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:48,240 we would consider a portal and speaking 835 00:32:53,269 --> 00:32:50,720 of those portals what that often means 836 00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:53,279 is that not only are various entities 837 00:32:58,549 --> 00:32:56,080 seen but sometimes the creatures that 838 00:33:00,789 --> 00:32:58,559 emerge from these kinds of portals look 839 00:33:03,269 --> 00:33:00,799 like they are out of place not just in 840 00:33:04,870 --> 00:33:03,279 terms of space but sometimes also in 841 00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:04,880 terms of time 842 00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:06,880 for instance there have been creatures 843 00:33:11,830 --> 00:33:09,519 emerge onto the property that look like 844 00:33:14,149 --> 00:33:11,840 they are from the jurassic era for 845 00:33:16,149 --> 00:33:14,159 instance and of course bigfoot or 846 00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:16,159 sasquatch is another creature that has 847 00:33:20,149 --> 00:33:18,640 been spotted on multiple occasions on 848 00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:20,159 the property 849 00:33:24,149 --> 00:33:22,000 now let's move to a section of the book 850 00:33:25,590 --> 00:33:24,159 where one of these encounters is 851 00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:25,600 discussed 852 00:33:33,990 --> 00:33:31,990 after about an hour of uneasy silence 853 00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:34,000 listening to wits rapid breathing 854 00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:36,159 kelleher and bigelow got up to explore 855 00:33:39,669 --> 00:33:37,440 the perimeter 856 00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:39,679 whit protested at being left alone and 857 00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:41,600 quickly joined kelleher as he headed 858 00:33:45,430 --> 00:33:43,600 towards the west side of the old 859 00:33:47,350 --> 00:33:45,440 abandoned homestead 860 00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:47,360 bigelow was about a hundred yards south 861 00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:49,120 of the pair and could hear the dog 862 00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:51,120 several hundred yards away 863 00:33:55,909 --> 00:33:53,360 suddenly a cone of silence descended on 864 00:33:58,310 --> 00:33:55,919 kelleher and wit the crickets seemed to 865 00:34:01,110 --> 00:33:58,320 go silent and even the faint rustling of 866 00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:01,120 the breeze in the trees ceased 867 00:34:05,590 --> 00:34:03,120 turning around they saw a creature 868 00:34:08,629 --> 00:34:05,600 ambling towards them from the south it 869 00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:08,639 was the size of a 150 pound pig and 870 00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:10,320 should have been making considerable 871 00:34:14,389 --> 00:34:12,159 noise as it walked 872 00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:14,399 yet the cone of silence dominated the 873 00:34:19,270 --> 00:34:16,560 moonlit scene as the creature glided 874 00:34:22,149 --> 00:34:19,280 past within 30 feet of kelleher and 875 00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:22,159 about 50 feet from wit 876 00:34:26,550 --> 00:34:24,240 to kill her it appeared the animal had a 877 00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:26,560 series of dinosaur-like spines on its 878 00:34:31,829 --> 00:34:29,440 back and also sported a very large 879 00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:31,839 flattened beaver-like tail it 880 00:34:36,470 --> 00:34:34,480 noiselessly coasted past the pair and 881 00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:36,480 disappeared around the southwestern 882 00:34:39,829 --> 00:34:38,800 corner of the building still not making 883 00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:39,839 a sound 884 00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:42,159 even kelleher who had spent hundreds of 885 00:34:47,109 --> 00:34:44,960 days and nights on skinwalker ranch and 886 00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:47,119 had already been exposed to his fair 887 00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:49,440 share of bizarre anomalies on the 888 00:34:54,389 --> 00:34:52,079 property felt a distinct chill as he 889 00:34:56,069 --> 00:34:54,399 watched the surreal animal shuffle 890 00:34:58,390 --> 00:34:56,079 silently away 891 00:35:00,470 --> 00:34:58,400 keleher looked at wit who was staring in 892 00:35:01,670 --> 00:35:00,480 astonishment at where they had last seen 893 00:35:04,150 --> 00:35:01,680 the creature 894 00:35:05,910 --> 00:35:04,160 quickly as if a spell had been broken 895 00:35:08,310 --> 00:35:05,920 they hurried around the corner to get 896 00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:08,320 another look at the bizarre beast 897 00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:10,960 nothing was visible wit and kelleher 898 00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:12,560 then ran to the north end of the 899 00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:14,880 homestead and still there was no sign of 900 00:35:19,829 --> 00:35:17,440 the creature ten minutes later the pair 901 00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:19,839 were still searching furiously in the 902 00:35:24,069 --> 00:35:22,720 area when bigelow joined them 903 00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:24,079 unquote 904 00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:26,720 once again another fascinating account 905 00:35:30,390 --> 00:35:28,960 of one of the events that took place on 906 00:35:32,710 --> 00:35:30,400 the ranch 907 00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:32,720 now lest you be led to believe that the 908 00:35:37,109 --> 00:35:34,560 hitchhiker phenomenon we discussed 909 00:35:38,230 --> 00:35:37,119 earlier was a rare occurrence perhaps a 910 00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:38,240 fluke 911 00:35:42,710 --> 00:35:40,079 nothing could be further from the truth 912 00:35:44,790 --> 00:35:42,720 this is a frequent encounter a frequent 913 00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:44,800 aspect of the activity that has been 914 00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:47,520 observed and documented at the ranch and 915 00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:49,680 again i think we should be thankful that 916 00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:51,920 an investigation like that conducted by 917 00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:54,640 ossap actually documented this and we 918 00:35:57,430 --> 00:35:56,400 now have it as part of the historical 919 00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:57,440 record 920 00:36:01,430 --> 00:35:59,280 i'd now like to follow up with a part of 921 00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:01,440 the book that follows this encounter 922 00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:03,280 with this dinosaur-like creature we just 923 00:36:07,510 --> 00:36:05,440 discussed that appeared and then 924 00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:07,520 disappeared again the dinosaur piglet 925 00:36:12,230 --> 00:36:10,240 creature one of the individuals that saw 926 00:36:13,750 --> 00:36:12,240 that creature perhaps come out of some 927 00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:13,760 sort of portal 928 00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:16,400 then encountered hitchhiker phenomena as 929 00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:18,960 well as poltergeist activity which for 930 00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:21,440 anyone familiar with this topic is aware 931 00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:23,760 is another frequent occurrence frequent 932 00:36:29,190 --> 00:36:26,400 association another data point that is 933 00:36:31,670 --> 00:36:29,200 part of the ufo phenomenon and high 934 00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:31,680 strangeness in general quoting from the 935 00:36:36,310 --> 00:36:34,320 book quote a few weeks later bigelow and 936 00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:36,320 kelleher learned that wit's eventful 937 00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:37,920 visit to the ranch was only the 938 00:36:42,790 --> 00:36:40,160 beginning of an invasion of frightening 939 00:36:45,990 --> 00:36:42,800 phenomena that penetrated her normally 940 00:36:48,870 --> 00:36:46,000 quiet and serene virginia townhouse 941 00:36:50,710 --> 00:36:48,880 within a week of arriving back home whit 942 00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:50,720 told keller her that her roommate 943 00:36:55,349 --> 00:36:52,560 suddenly began screaming in fear at 944 00:36:57,750 --> 00:36:55,359 about 2 am she heard him yelling in the 945 00:37:00,150 --> 00:36:57,760 adjacent room that somebody was standing 946 00:37:01,670 --> 00:37:00,160 over his bed she quickly activated all 947 00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:01,680 of the lights and found that there was 948 00:37:05,430 --> 00:37:03,520 nobody in his room 949 00:37:06,310 --> 00:37:05,440 it took hours for the roommate to calm 950 00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:06,320 down 951 00:37:10,310 --> 00:37:08,720 in her first conversation with kelleher 952 00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:10,320 wood explained that she had lived in 953 00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:12,240 that townhouse for a couple of years and 954 00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:14,880 that nothing like that had ever happened 955 00:37:19,430 --> 00:37:17,280 she also reported hearing loud banging 956 00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:19,440 sounds from her kitchen and heavy 957 00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:21,520 footsteps on her stairs the previous 958 00:37:23,829 --> 00:37:22,400 night 959 00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:23,839 she confessed that her roommate's 960 00:37:28,150 --> 00:37:25,920 hysterical reaction to this paranormal 961 00:37:29,990 --> 00:37:28,160 invasion was more frightening than the 962 00:37:32,230 --> 00:37:30,000 actual event itself 963 00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:32,240 a week later she again called kelleher 964 00:37:36,390 --> 00:37:34,480 to report that on the previous night she 965 00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:36,400 was slowly backing out of her driveway 966 00:37:40,790 --> 00:37:38,640 when a gigantic bird that looked like an 967 00:37:42,790 --> 00:37:40,800 oversized owl had swooped down and 968 00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:42,800 literally attacked her car 969 00:37:46,950 --> 00:37:44,880 twice the huge bird of prey had died 970 00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:46,960 down at high speed the creature's 971 00:37:52,150 --> 00:37:49,200 talents striking her windshield and her 972 00:37:53,910 --> 00:37:52,160 hood with great force it was only after 973 00:37:56,550 --> 00:37:53,920 jamming her foot on the gas that she 974 00:37:58,390 --> 00:37:56,560 avoided another attack from the owl 975 00:38:00,630 --> 00:37:58,400 whit reported that she had never seen an 976 00:38:02,069 --> 00:38:00,640 owl that big and she certainly had never 977 00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:02,079 experienced that kind of aggressive 978 00:38:06,550 --> 00:38:04,640 attack from any kind of bird which 979 00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:06,560 sounded very disturbed as there were 980 00:38:10,470 --> 00:38:09,040 definite scrapes and gouges in the paint 981 00:38:13,349 --> 00:38:10,480 of her car 982 00:38:15,910 --> 00:38:13,359 at the time 2009 she was completely 983 00:38:18,230 --> 00:38:15,920 unaware of the perceived relationship in 984 00:38:20,230 --> 00:38:18,240 the world of paranormal research with 985 00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:20,240 owls and uap 986 00:38:25,349 --> 00:38:23,440 although by 2015 mike clelland and 987 00:38:26,150 --> 00:38:25,359 others had already signed posted this 988 00:38:28,710 --> 00:38:26,160 link 989 00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:28,720 a month later axelrod called kelleher 990 00:38:33,030 --> 00:38:31,200 with some very sobering news it appeared 991 00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:33,040 that the poltergeist activity had 992 00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:35,599 escalated in witch townhouse and that on 993 00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:37,680 one occasion both wit and her roommate 994 00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:40,079 were in the living room when two wine 995 00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:42,560 bottles suddenly flew off the wine rack 996 00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:44,560 hurtled across the room in front of them 997 00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:47,280 and smashed loudly and messily on the 998 00:38:50,790 --> 00:38:48,800 opposite wall 999 00:38:52,950 --> 00:38:50,800 axelrod told kelleher that witt's 1000 00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:52,960 roommate was so terrified by the litany 1001 00:38:57,109 --> 00:38:55,359 of paranormal events that he had moved 1002 00:38:59,109 --> 00:38:57,119 out of the townhouse 1003 00:39:01,510 --> 00:38:59,119 although the intensity and frequency of 1004 00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:01,520 the attacks then decreased they were 1005 00:39:05,510 --> 00:39:03,520 still relatively common 1006 00:39:07,910 --> 00:39:05,520 wit reported that she frequently awoke 1007 00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:07,920 to find black shadow-like figures in her 1008 00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:10,320 room near her bed and she reported 1009 00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:12,400 seeing different colored orbs in her 1010 00:39:15,349 --> 00:39:13,440 home 1011 00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:15,359 it was adamant that she had never 1012 00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:17,359 experienced any events of this kind in 1013 00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:19,680 her townhouse before her visit to 1014 00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:22,240 skinwalker ranch it was if she had 1015 00:39:27,109 --> 00:39:24,400 brought something back from skinwalker 1016 00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:27,119 ranch to her quiet affluent virginia 1017 00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:28,400 neighborhood 1018 00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:30,079 several years later whitt was still 1019 00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:31,760 experiencing the poltergeist-like 1020 00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:35,440 activity in her townhouse unquote 1021 00:39:40,390 --> 00:39:37,680 now because this book skinwalkers at the 1022 00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:40,400 pentagon covers so many compelling 1023 00:39:46,630 --> 00:39:43,200 incidents that were covered investigated 1024 00:39:49,829 --> 00:39:46,640 and documented in detail by the bass 1025 00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:49,839 slash awsap team it really is impossible 1026 00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:52,240 to do it justice in the duration of a 1027 00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:54,000 single podcast 1028 00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:56,320 therefore i plan to do another podcast 1029 00:40:01,349 --> 00:39:59,359 part two next week discussing this book 1030 00:40:04,230 --> 00:40:01,359 and the revelations that emerged from 1031 00:40:06,470 --> 00:40:04,240 the asap program and the investigations 1032 00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:06,480 conducted by bass 1033 00:40:10,309 --> 00:40:08,640 and now for this week's episode i'd like 1034 00:40:13,670 --> 00:40:10,319 to leave you with a few concluding 1035 00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:13,680 thoughts first off when i reflect on the 1036 00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:15,359 asap program 1037 00:40:19,829 --> 00:40:18,000 two key points emerge in my mind first 1038 00:40:22,710 --> 00:40:19,839 of all they conducted a highly 1039 00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:22,720 professional dedicated endeavor grounded 1040 00:40:27,589 --> 00:40:24,640 in scientific rigor 1041 00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:27,599 this is so important in my book again i 1042 00:40:32,069 --> 00:40:29,760 certainly have said many times that i 1043 00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:32,079 recognize the limitations of science 1044 00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:34,319 when it comes to a phenomenon that seems 1045 00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:36,720 to be rooted in consciousness 1046 00:40:42,309 --> 00:40:39,359 nevertheless we can learn a lot when we 1047 00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:42,319 employ scientific rigor when we record 1048 00:40:48,150 --> 00:40:44,800 data when we collate data when we look 1049 00:40:50,470 --> 00:40:48,160 for patterns etc again science as it 1050 00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:50,480 presently exists may not be sufficient 1051 00:40:56,069 --> 00:40:53,200 to fully understand this phenomenon not 1052 00:40:58,230 --> 00:40:56,079 to mention reality itself but it does 1053 00:41:00,950 --> 00:40:58,240 get us a long way it is essential even 1054 00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:00,960 if it's not sufficient 1055 00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:03,280 secondly in reflecting on some of the 1056 00:41:06,950 --> 00:41:05,440 events we discussed today when we 1057 00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:06,960 consider the character and 1058 00:41:11,829 --> 00:41:09,680 professionalism of the people involved 1059 00:41:14,230 --> 00:41:11,839 we can have high confidence that these 1060 00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:14,240 events really took place that's my 1061 00:41:18,829 --> 00:41:16,319 perspective anyway that sometimes 1062 00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:18,839 critics will suggest that some of these 1063 00:41:24,069 --> 00:41:21,920 seemingly bizarre episodes are merely 1064 00:41:26,470 --> 00:41:24,079 the machinations of people with 1065 00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:26,480 overactive imaginations or a lack of 1066 00:41:31,750 --> 00:41:29,280 credibility but here we have seasoned 1067 00:41:33,670 --> 00:41:31,760 professionals who have years in the 1068 00:41:35,829 --> 00:41:33,680 field who are encountering things they 1069 00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:35,839 cannot explain and yet they do their 1070 00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:38,160 best from a scientific point of view to 1071 00:41:42,550 --> 00:41:40,800 record the events with great detail 1072 00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:42,560 again the fact that this is now part of 1073 00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:44,960 the historical record should not be 1074 00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:47,520 ignored this is an important step in the 1075 00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:49,760 process of us seeking to understand this 1076 00:41:53,430 --> 00:41:51,920 phenomenon to a much greater degree than 1077 00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:53,440 we currently do 1078 00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:55,520 it's exactly these kinds of 1079 00:42:00,390 --> 00:41:57,920 investigations we need more of we need 1080 00:42:02,470 --> 00:42:00,400 less ridicule less scoff and more 1081 00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:02,480 dedicated science looking into a 1082 00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:04,240 question that is perhaps the most 1083 00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:07,280 important question of our era if not of 1084 00:42:11,349 --> 00:42:09,359 all time 1085 00:42:13,270 --> 00:42:11,359 lastly if you've been paying attention 1086 00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:13,280 to social media since the release of 1087 00:42:16,309 --> 00:42:14,480 this book 1088 00:42:18,150 --> 00:42:16,319 you'll no doubt have found that people 1089 00:42:20,390 --> 00:42:18,160 are complaining that a book like 1090 00:42:22,870 --> 00:42:20,400 skinwalkers at the pentagon is only 1091 00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:22,880 going to undermine the credibility 1092 00:42:26,950 --> 00:42:25,440 ufology has recently gained 1093 00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:26,960 from my perspective that's a 1094 00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:28,800 near-sighted view 1095 00:42:33,349 --> 00:42:30,640 science needs to move beyond 1096 00:42:35,829 --> 00:42:33,359 reductionistic physicalism if it hopes 1097 00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:35,839 to understand this phenomenon and in 1098 00:42:41,349 --> 00:42:38,560 that sense this book and the program 1099 00:42:43,829 --> 00:42:41,359 that it discusses is an essential step 1100 00:42:46,309 --> 00:42:43,839 in that very 1101 00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:46,319 and on that note we've come to the close 1102 00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:48,079 of another edition of the point of 1103 00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:49,839 convergence podcast 1104 00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:52,000 as always let's keep this conversation 1105 00:42:55,990 --> 00:42:53,920 going and growing 1106 00:42:58,470 --> 00:42:56,000 don't forget to tune in next week as we 1107 00:43:00,630 --> 00:42:58,480 continue our discussion of skinwalkers 1108 00:43:03,109 --> 00:43:00,640 at the pentagon and the revelations that 1109 00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:03,119 it exposes to the public sphere for the 1110 00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:05,200 first time 1111 00:43:09,190 --> 00:43:07,280 but until next time friends from deep 1112 00:43:12,390 --> 00:43:09,200 within the blue ridge mountains of north